AI_pealkiri: Lahkuv USA suursaadik Jeffrey Levine Eesti iduettevõtlusest, e-residentsusest ja Silicon Valleyst

Tere tulemast kuulama järjekordset Restarti saadet, meil on laupäev, kahekümne kuues september ning tänane saade on mõnevõrra eriline. Meil on väga eriline külaline, kelleks on ülehomme Eestist lahkuv Ameerika Ühendriikide suursaadik Jeffrey Levine ning seetõttu on, otsustasime me Taaviga, et me teeme selle saate inglisekeelsena. Sellel ei ole tõlget, kuna... Eetris tõlkimine võtaks tempot nii kohutavalt palju maha ja me eeldame, et valdav, valdav enamus inimestest, kes meie saadet kuulavad ja kes seda teemat jälgivad, saavad väga hästi ka inglise keelest aru, nii et me palume vabandust kõigi inimeste eest, kes ei saa järgmised kolmveerand tundi Kuku raadiot kuulata, aga järgmisel nädalal me oleme jälle eestikeelsena eetris, aga see saade siis inglisekeelsena ning saatejuhid, nagu ikka, Taavi Kotka, Henrik Roonemaa ja, ja siit edasi läheme inglisekeelsena ning ma annan Taavile sõna üle.

Tere ka minu poolt. Mr. Ambassador, I mean like, this radio show is mostly about start-ups and, and IT. And before we start talking about Estonian start-ups and your experience with this, we know that you, you, you, you, you have like your own experience with start-ups. Can, can you just open it up or elaborate it?

Sure, and first of all, thanks for having me today, it's a, it's a real pleasure being here. I was on the founding staff of a newspaper in the United States called USA Today. And this was the first attempt in the United States to create a national newspaper and it was formed, being formed by a large media korporation. So, very different, absolutely no start-up, it was, no bootstrap, it was almost the opposite. is this was a very riski corporate decision and corporate undertaking, and one thing that they were going to be clear of is that it was not going to fail due to lack of resources. So there was more resources than I, than I had ever seen, but they recruited staff from around the country, primarily from the newspapers, they already owned, but they, they went out and put together a staff and brought people from all over the country to Washington, D.C. The, the plan was to start, uh, putting out the paper about six weeks before we actually went live, so we were there for about two weeks just getting to know each other, and then for the next six weeks we put out a newspaper every day, that nobody but the staff read, ever read. And then we went live September 15, 1982. There was a lot of, obviously research put into this, it was well, they, they definitely had a plan of what they wanted to do, some of that worked, some of it did not. For me it was very interesting to see the way first of all a team comes together. It was interesting to see people that were right for the job that they were selected for, people who were wrong for the job that they were selected for, and the human dynamics of putting together a very large team as well as trying to do something that had never been done before.

But the USA is always great, starting with this, starting with new, new companies on meil, like... Looking at Estonian start-up ökosystem, like, what was your first impression, like, when, when you arrived here, I think was, like, three-four years ago?

Three years ago. And, you have to say, I had, of course, known about Skype, because that was probably the one thing that everybody in the United States knows about Estonia. So I had that kind of in the background, but I'd not had much contact or experience and my very first experience with the start-up community was the courtesy-call I paid Garage48. And was kind of immediately taken with the people that I met and what they were about. And from there, just the relationships kept growing because I, I have to say that the people that I met in the start-up tech world were some of the most interesting, smartest, most committed people that I'd ever met. And I had a personal desire to spend as much time with them as I could and learn from them.

Garage, Garage48. Is it just a hassle or is it just a great thing, I mean, like your impression? My,

my impression is, is, it's a, it's a great thing, one of it is I'm very impressed with the personalities there, but we and we with the embassy have partnered with them in several hackathons, both in Estonia as well as supported their activities overseas, and I can talk a little bit more about why we do that and the connection that we see between the startup community and some of the program that we are trying to push. But, at the first hackathon that we were with, we had paid for mentors to come from New York City to work, I think this was a music-related one, not positive, but I think that was the theme. We paid for mentors to come from New York and they told me that the process, that Garage48 was following and just the whole event that they created was the best that they ever seen. And this is people that were very familiar with, with the hackathon seen in the States in a way that I was not.

I have to agree here, I mean, like, jah, I was, I mean, like the e-residents, e-residentsi garaaž that was happening just a couple of weeks ago, I mean, it was my first garaaž actually. And I was very impressed about the procedures and, and the whole process, I mean, like it was amazing, I mean, like what they did, they are doing.

Right. Co, co-coincidentally, we will have recently sponsored a hackathon with Garage48 on the topic of trafficking in persons. And we had a, a, a large group of technical, I'm sorry, what do we call that subject matter experts, people who knew trafficking in persons, to serve as, to highlight the pro, what the problem was. And what we are trying to accomplish with that, and, and it was just turned over to the tech people, the visionaries, see, well, what can we do in this way to address this issue.

You have been serving your country in, in, in several countries, not only in Estonia

but. One of

the. Exactly, so, so you actually can compare what is the situation in start-up, in start-up feeling in, in, in different countries, like is it, is it, is it, is it Estonia some, some kind of special or, or it's the same thing in everywhere.

No, I, I'm going to have to say that it is, because in no other country did this community ever come on to my screen. And ever come on to the embassys screen. So, previously, immediately before this, I was in Budapest, which I have since learned, does have its own start-up seen, but at that point, there was no connection with the embassys. Before that, I was in Bulgeria, although it was, it was, that was already, you know, alust ten years ago. So, if it was there, it was an apparent. And I think that, I guess the stature that this community has and the profile that this community has in Estonia is one of the things that makes them unique.

USA ambassador, I mean like, you are an ambassador, so what it means is that you are basically the key person between USA and that particular country. What it actually means, I mean like, how much US companies, for example, try to use your help and then try to, for example, fight against these kind of examples?

We certainly try to represent US business interests. The, the, I guess the national US presence is not that large here, there's many American companies that are represented, but usually more by local representatives or assignees. We're always willing to help there, I think because it's such a clean business environment here, we rarely get the kind of case that you get. In, in, in, in countries that don't operate as, as well or as cleanly as Estonia. So we have occasional advocacy issues, but not many, if there is a tender, for instance, in Estonia that American. Company is interested in, they can kind of count on it being run fairly and we don't, as I said, have the, the kind of issues. IPR, the intellectual property issue, has, we've worked on that some, again, the American, the American companies with intellectual property to protect, we'd like to see more, the Estonians have a little bit of a different view. And even the view of protecting intellectual property, among the startup community was very interesting to me, because in some ways it was a little bit at odds with the US perspektive, or at least took a different tag. Aitäh.

But the situation has improved on meil, et piracy issue in Estonia, seems to be going, going in, in right direction.

That, I, I think so, I think that the, the major issues that American copyright holders face in much of the world has been addressed here. I think that there is probably still more piracy at the individual level or the personal level, but that's not the kind of loss that these companies are really most concerned about.

I think Estonians also have a problem, that we see all this IP, like, needs to be, like, more open, to use for everybody, et cetera, so. Our people clearly and lauli, say out, et. I mean, like, those big music industries, et cetera, they should re, like, re-think the principles of how, how the inventive properties should be treated, so. To you actually get some guidelines from, from, from your, from, from your post is basically...

I think, that, I think our policy is pretty clear in the official sense of piracy is piracy and we are going to do everything that we can to prevent it, but I think there is also the understanding that there is different levels of it. And one of the issues that the Estonians have raised with us, that we've tried to address, is we're willing to pay for it. You just have iTunes here, have Netflix here, have Hulu pluss here, have it available to us, have it take Estonian credit cards, give us some benefit of paying for it. And we would be happy to. It gets into the different licensing agreements, it's a whole complicated world with a lot of money at stake and I think that complicates it. But one of the message is that we've tried to carry back to Washington is, at least in Estonia, you have a community that's willing to pay for these products. So why don't we help our, the American producers, make it available here. And I, iTunes is here now. One of

the recent examples I've used is that Amazon, bought the, I think the three most popular TV host ever to become out of, to come out of Europe, the top care trio. And so if they launch a new show in, in 2016, then officially, what do you think, how many European countries can watch their beloved TV-stars? And, and the next market Amazon planns to go to is India. It's not

funny, when a, our start-ups actually had a problem that they could not use Google Play. I mean, they could use it, but they could not get money from, from Google. So, and to solve the problem, we had to turn to the president, Ilves, to help us and he did and now it's, it's, it's sold, the problem is sold. But, during the process, we, we understood what is our, say, what is our level or like where we are in, in the Google's list and it was, they said you know, we, we actually put you in the head of Sudaan, now. But, I, I mean, I understand Google, because Sudaani is 80 miljonit country and but also Sudaani is a country, for example, where European Union has an embargo. So it's, it's, it's, it's no, no me know, where we are. In, in

your three year, three years here, have you ever felt, oh my god, it would be so much easier for Estonia if it's just bigger.

Well, I, I, I am kind of saying that I think the world needs more Estonians, so I, I mean all in favor, but... So, so do we. It is, it is not a question of eas of living, it's what small number of you are already contributing to the world, thinking that if you are more of you, that that contribution would be so much larger. But as, as I have indikated, these are, are big financial decisions by big multinational companies and they are hard to influence, but I think they, they do have the recognition that in many markets, if they were, if they sell it, they can help their own piracy problems.

It's interesting, I mean, like Europe sees that, that USA is actually going head big times and it's, there's no way that Europe could copy the same kind of platforms like Google or Apple or like Microsoft Tools. So, but definitely they want to increase the competitiveness, I mean, like Europe want to increase the competitiveness. So most probably we will see again some kind of regulations like it was with Microsoft, I think 15-20 years ago, with, with the internet explorer case, for example. So how you feel about that, how you see those kind of development?

I, I, I think that we see that, that out there, that, that countries have a legitimate intrest in insuring competition. We, we'd like to make sure that this is just disguised protectionism, but if there is a legitimate need. I, I tend to think that over the long term, the market often addresses it and when you, you, you mentioned Microsoft and the effort that the European Union put into. Paddling Microsoft on competition issues and, and look at them now in terms of. Where Apple has come, where Google has come, where other commercial products in the market have eclipsed them in many ways and the competition did a rise. Whether it was to the efforts of the European Union or, or it's hard to say, I think that the market is self-adjusted and that companies, ahven, fail, when they, I mean, companies that are, that are viewed as. Too large a failure, too successful, are often eclipsed by newer companies with better products, so I think the market addresses it too.

That's true, but I know, I know it's, it's, you have, you have, you have, you have not been in China, you have not been in China, but what's the thing in China, that US companies, I mean, They're pulling them, them sell out from there, I mean Amazon or eBay or Google, even, I mean, special from, from IT company's perspective that, that US companies are not doing so great in, in, in China. It's a, it's a, it's a cultural thing or what, what's the reason?

Ok, it's time for a small break in the discussion and we'll be right back. Restart!

Tere

tulemast, tagasi kuulame Stati saadet, Taavi Kotka ja Henrik Roonemaa intervjueerivad tänases saates Eestist kohe-kohe lahkuvat Ameerika ühendriikide suursaadikud.

So, let's talk about start-ups again. Do you have particular favorite start-up in Estonia or start-ups in Estonia? That you, that you really like? I,

I kind of personally like, like them all and I've been The, the ones where I, I kind of see the most immediate promise and where, where I, I really enjoyed learning from them are the people that are in the, the 3D printing, I think that's a, a very interesting, interesting place. 3D systems, they've changed their names a few different times, but I know that there, they've already got an office in San Francisco, they're working in it. I just made contact with a group of people at a company called Wolfprint. And I've been watching, they're doing 3D printing in, in gypsum. And what I find really interesting in them is, they're kind of the model of the, the start-ups that I've watched, is that they are, are very nimble and pretty good at saying, yeah, I don't think that's going to work in the way that different start-ups change their focus very quickly as they come to the conclusion that something that they're pursuing, is not going to work and they just have the ability, et, et, either, you know, kind of. Aband in products, go in new directions, as well as just kind of the personal commitments into it. I've been very impressed with the whole Transferwise fenomena, which, you know, it really has exploded in the three years that I've been there. And, both how successful they've been, the, the brilliance of their marketing, and also the, just the work environment that they've created here, and I made sure that we had five interns. with the embassy this summer. And I made sure they got over to Transferwise, just to see what that world look like, going, you sure you want to work for the government, when you could, you know, work in that environment... What, what is

it that, what, what is it that impressed you in the work environment that much?

As somebody who's spent his, his entire career in a very structured, hierarhical kind of work environment, just what seems like is this, this very relaxed atmosphere, the, the empowerment at the lowest level. You know, I, I had a, one of their lunchchats with them and, and I was just asking, do you guys even have to come to work? Is there something, can you be late for work at this place? It's just a, a very different environment that seems to support the indi, individual. And that is, I know that that is going on in the Silicon Valley as well, maybe even started in the Silicon Valley, but I personally have never gotten to see it up close and I find that fascinating.

The US does one thing in, in really correct way, we see the same pattern happen basically with every startup in Estonia, that they, they erase their A round, mostly in, from, from US companies. So the way, how the investments are treated, the, the investment eco-system works in, in US, it's, it's magical, I mean like you get talented people all around the world providing solutions in US. I think during the immigratsion skandal here, there was some statistics that twenty-five percent of the largest US techcompanies are actually started by immigrants. So you do that part, like. And

that's one of the areas that we've tried to work in with in the embeste's is to bring venture capitalist to Estonia, expose them to the scene, trying to help companies here that are looking for VC to find the right investors in the United States, and someways we're a little bit in competition with the UK and, and the European market and we understand we're a little farther. But Estonian start-ups, I think, have had great success in the, the VC world and also just making those connections and as I learned, two things, we took a, a delegation to the US of, of start-ups and, and, and some, some, some more mature firms. And in meeting with VC, one of the things that I found most interesting. Well, see all in one way or another said, we don't really invest in the company as much as we do in the founder. So they are really looking at the individuals involved more than the products that they've got and kind of deciding, does this person have what it takes to go the whole, the whole lenkst, even if this product fails, we'd like to have a relationship with this person. And I, I was just really impressed that they are looking at the talent of the individual and the drive and the ambition and the commitment. Another, you know, to, to me, to me, GrabCad, is also been a company that we've spent a lot of time with, they've been very successful in the US, and in Boston, every place we went, they knew Hardi. And the fact, et he had been out there, he was, he was already a known figure in the, the Boston tech-seen, you could tell that even if GrabCad came apart, which it obviously wasn't going to, all these people still wanted to have a relationship with him.

Jah, what, what we see here from Estonian side, I think, is that Estonian start-up, Estonian companies are quite well-known. Yes, because, because, because of Skype, but, but history has been so good, many successful start-ups, coming from Estonian, so. It was a huge problem, six, seven years ago, how to raise, I think, now, when you have, at least you have, if you have a good team and you have a good product, it should be quite easy.

I think that the, the companies that have already been, the United States has been successful, definitely make it easier and at least in the, the Valley. The Estonian Mafia is known, the Silicon Vikings are known, and they are thought of very highly.

Jaa, but there is a huge problem in US, lots of things are going around patenting stuff and again, we are coming back to IP question. Like, even to think about, should I actually apply for a patent or not, I mean, this kind of question never rise, it's just, it's too expensive, it's too much hassle, just let's forget it. But in USA, it's different.

It is different. And that's, in part is, I mean, I don't know what the per capita, the ratio of lawyers to other people in the United States are, but it's very high and we have a very legalistik country. One of the things that I've notatist, that I, I like here, is when you talk about the start-up people that, that we've met, and I'll go back to Garage48, one of the first questions that I asked after going to a hackathon, and people actually had a product at the end of the weekend, said, well, who owns this, you know, and how do you protect it? And the answer that I got, again, in many different ways from different people, is that their view of protecting international inter, intellectual property, one of the methods of protecting intellectual property is just to get out there, head of anybody, and do it, and so you've got it done, and the fact that you're already successful there is going to discourage other people from following you. And the protection actually becomes more important when they go for that A round or they go for financing and then the people that are giving them the money, they wanna see, how is this, what am I actually buying, how is this protected. But they also then have the money to help them protect it. And I am pleased to say that Estonia has just been accepted into a fast track program with our office of patents and trademarks, that allows Estonian filings to be fast track. So, a little bit of savings there, getting into our copyright patent world, it, it's expensive and it, it's time-consuming and I think you probably know, the majority of, of, of applications in the end are denied, although you've got that protection during the evaluation process.

I'm, I'm wondering here, are there any Estonian filings in the US patent system,

have there ever been? Defi, defi, defi, defi, defi, jaa, there is, but what I see here and Mr. Ambrasser, could actually, could actually comment that, but the thing is that Estonians, we somehow believe that people are honest. People out there, they're honest, nobody's stealing. I can't find another reason why it's that, me, me, me don't deal with IP, me don't deal with patterns, we, we expect people out there to be honest and as our product is first, so we should have some kind of like first commers right or something, but there is not something like that.

The

word is tough.

It's, it's, it's very legalistik and, and fortunately a lot of people have made a lot of money trolling for patent violations, there is that whole industry in the United States and it's, it's, it's just part of doing business and not environment.

I think we should do an extra show about patent trolling. Nobody would listen. But that's the thing, I mean like, nobody understands it in Estonia.

Yeah, one of the things that we do understand is that at least there's lots of discussion around the fact that when we, if and when we have a successful start-up and they get funded by the United States VC, and then they, they go away, they, they leave Estonia and, and then we have discussions that that's a bad thing, right, that, that are going away, we, we should not encourage them to travel to, to Silicon Valley.

All right, and I can certainly understand that, at the embassy, we have tried to encourage a co-operative kind of approach, where you use the United States for, rather, let's say business structures that benefit both countries. Sometimes that works, I've been told by some people that have been there, that for instance, the venture capitalist, once they put X amount of money into the company, they want you a little closer. They want to see what their money is, is, is actually buying. And on the flip side, many companies, when they form the right relationship with their venture capitalist, those guys are going to then provide them mentoring and assistents, they'll know the people to put on the board. And we are most pleased when we come up with structures where, let's say, you are using the United States for the size of its market, its marketing skills, its capital, but research and development, for instance, stays in Estonia.

And we have, luckily we have examples of that as

well. I do totally agree here, I mean like, it's totally normal that you have

to be there, where your customers are. And if, if USA is your, is your favorite market, and, and you have to be there. And as long as you keep your development center here, it's okay. Like, if you move that into latve, that's a problem.

Well, another company that, that you mentioned is Erply, which has a, a product that's being used all over the world right now. So, they are represented in many different countries, but it's an internet platform, it's delivered via internet, so they are able to keep a lot of their operations here in Estonia while being marketed internationally.

Restart.

Me oleme

eetris tagasi, Taavi Kotka, Henrik Roonemaa ja meil on külas Ameerika Ühendriikide suursaadik Jeffrey Levine, kes kelle ametiaeg Eestis saab kohe, kohe ümber ja me kasutame võimalust Taaviga siis võtta temalt viimane, tõenäoliselt viimane intervjuu.

Mr. Ambassador, let's talk about Estonia. You are living now, so like two things you are, you are, you are start to miss and two things that you never miss.

I've got to say that the, the people that I've met in Estonia said, they, they are unique and I don't think they, they recognize what they've accomplished, how successful they've been. So that, that whole field is what I'm going to miss very much and just the way that Estonia society conducts, it's self in, in, in, in many, many different ways. Let me, let me think about what I want miss, and I'll get back to you before, before the end of the show.

Well, one of the things that we say in Estonias, that it, it could be the tagline of Estonias, that everything is a bit chilly at first, but then it gets better. The people, the service in the restaurants, or the, the water temperature in the sea, during summer time and so on, so was that your experience, that you, you have to give time to Estonia and Estonians?

Jaa, not at all. And that's the part that I find very interesting is my impression of the Estonians compared with the Estonians' impressions of the Estonians and you're much harder on yourself than I think that there, there's any reason to be and especially in terms of being open and friendly, I find Estonians very friendly, I might have to make the first gesture. And I understand that I'm ambassador and people are generally very nice to me in, in most situations, but I find Estonians very open and very friendly, not necessarily on the street in the same way that Americans are, but certainly, you know, happy to talk to anybody. I've found that Estonians are the most. Outward-looking people, forward-looking people that I've ever met. They are aware of their history, but they are not prisoners of it. And they have a very sophisticated world view. And so I've enjoyed being in that environment. I have to say, the level of English in this country has also been just terrific for me, as somebody, who. Didn't pick up Estonian, didn't just, just tride, but cap said, didn't tride that hard, when I said. How great the English was here, so because of the level of English, it's allowed me to operate in my native tongue, which has allowed me to have much more and much easier communication. Than it would have been, had I been speaking a second language or using an interpreter the whole time. So, those have all been perfect.

You also have observed over information society, I mean like the things, how we actually commu, communica with each other, to teach our signature part, et cetera, I mean. Have you enjoyed all the benefits of that also or, or you have to, you have to be sticked with US and?

No, and for, for me that, that it's been great and I think you know that I applied for Estonian e-residency. And it was a little iroonic, I applied for Estonian e-residency in the morning and then tried to renew my son's car registration with the California department of motor vehicles in the evening. And the difference between the two websites, the difference between just the way they operated and what I was able to get done, was pretty striking, and I came in the next morning and went, I think living back in America is going to be harder than I think, so.

Aa, so you're next posting is back in America?

I'm, I'm, right, I'm, I'm actually, this is my last assignment, I'm moving back to California, where I left 33 years ago, and I grew up in the Silicon Valley before it was the Silicon Valley, and I'm going back there and I'm really looking forward to that.

Do you have any, any insider, any, probably you have lots of ideas, why is Silicon Valley Silicon Valley? As you said, you live there before it, it became Silicon Valley, so what made Silicon Valley?

It's, it's part of San Franciscos loar and when you look at openness and tolerants and what it creates, you really do have to look at San Francisco. And I am a very proud... resident of that area, so I know that I, I'm, I'm biased, but if you look at, in United States, the social movements that have occurred and, let's say the beatniks kind of started in New York, but they really also took hold in San Francisco, followed by the hipi era, followed by women's liberation, followed by gay liberation, I mean all of those movements in United States really did start in the San Francisco area, either started or really became powerful.

And social.

And social. So it's, it's, it's an area that is tremendously open, tremendously tolerant and it attracts people that wanna live in that area. And I think that the development that occurred in Silicon Valley, Silicon Valley is the end result of it attracting just all of these very bright people that wanted to live there, so you put that together. Silicon Valley's,

In my mind a lot of it is, is about being against the man. It's, it's this free culture, Apple started as being against the man with their 1984 ads and so on, now, now we see the start-ups, and I have a theory that it's, it's heavily based on the hipi culture that was originally there, there are probably sons and gransons of the original hipis, who, who have adopted this world view that, this, this free culture.

Absoluutselt, et they are all-related and I think the fact that the Silicon Valley's folks really do pride themselves on disruption, that is, that is an element. I don't want to overly romanicize it, because it's also big business and a lot of people are there for the money. But there, there, it is an environment that supports all that. And that, that's a little bit, no, that's very related to why the embasi has been so active with the start-up community here in Estonia. Because we just said very quickly that there is that connection that you are talking about, between this start-up mentality. And the entrepreneur and it really, it is not just an occupation, it is, it is a world view and a way of life. And it is a world view that is very supportive of personal freedom, of living your life the way you want to, of tolerants, of disruption in a positive way. All of those are element of the entrepreneurial community. And those elements have been very successful here and we've worked with Estonian entrepreneurs to help transplant add a little bit to other areas, like, like Belarus, we've done projects with Garage48 in Tunisia, we've supported them, I know, in the, in the Palestanian authority in Uganda, so this element of personal freedom that supports. kind of demokracy and open societies is very much part of the entrepreneurial environment and there, there's a connection that we've tried to support.

But how big is the role of university, mille, Stanford is there, if, if, if talk about Silicon Valley, it seem to be that, that you always need a very strong and very powerful university to, to actually help these kind of things?

I, I think that helps, but I think that's more of the talent collection than the, the direct roll that they're playing, I could be wrong, I know that a lot of the MBA programs are teaching entrepreneurial But, I, you know, I liked, I, I know Harvard really prides, et self on many of its graduates, but if you look at it, you know, Mark Zuckerberg, Harvard dropout. As opposed to people that were created in these educational environments, so I think that, obviously, having very well-funded, talented universities in the mix, helps. But I don't think that there's a direct connection there, could be.

Okei, I don't know, it's the end of the show, what was... ... some minutes to go. ...What was the, what was the hardest time during your stay here, I mean, could it be the Snowden case for example, when you have to explain to the information society, I mean, like Estonia Ees, that, that NSA is actually not going after everybody?

Ja, that, there, there are a couple of external issues that, uh, certainly complicated the role of our ambassadors around the world. Estonia was at least open to our explanation, I think that there was, there was concerns, there continue to be concerns, but. I, I always responded that one, that whatever level of concern there was in Estonia, it was much, much greater than the United States by Americans, who shared those very same concerns. And the information, that was released, was mostly accurate, but not completely accurate. And, you know, kind of stress that none of those activities were really aimed at stifling dissent or stifling the free flow of information. And none of it was aimed at industrial espionage or, or, or company secrets. And we can say that very cleanly and clearly, where many countries that aren't in this discussion, would not be able to.

I, I might have used happens of fishing. Jah, definetely true. Jah, it's, it's, it's still interesting how, how those issues are discussed in, in Europe, especially in Germany. I have to say, I think Germany has changed, the way how they have seen the privacy and data protection is, it has dramatically changed and towards the USA. Like in, in a positive way, I mean like, they start to understand all those, those questions betterly.

No, I think that data privacy and online privacy are, are definitely important issues and everybody that's involved in both that and the security side are trying to balance it and it's, it's, it's a difficult balance to make.

Oke. Jaa, do you think that the, the privacy environment will actually change or, or let's say, become more transparent, because now we have a problem that no-one knows and everybody suspects something. Right, so, and, and people go around saying that we, that, that should be a transparent policy or, or at least we should know what's going on and then we should accept it or denounce it.

I think president, president Obama has especially been concerned about that and has made a lot of changes, starting with the question of just because we have the technical capability of doing something, should we be doing something? And when should we be doing it? And what should the controls on that be? And I, I have to note that. For, much of our history, when it kames to, kame to, quote, intelligence issues, our response, response would be, we will not discuss intelligence issues, period. And that was, noh, that's obviously a very unsatisfactory answer to people who want to talk about it. And President Obama really was the first one to, to say, okay, we're going to talk about it, we are going to admit, yes, we have been doing this. This is why we're doing it. We are now going to review, whether we should be doing it and we'll let you know, how that review came out. And that, I, I'm not sure that he got enough credit for how difficult that is, and sotsi in the security environment, of being more force coming with what we were doing and a commitment to, to really review, how it was operating.

Who will be the next president of US?

Ah no, you're going to have to ask me a little bit closer, you know, right, right now we are definitely in the political circus atmosphere, where I think everybody is enjoying the Trump candidacy without really believing that it could go all the way, so it, it's almost like on that side, they are waiting for that part of the show to be over and the serious candidates to be designated. On the demokraatlik side, it's a little bit clearer, I think, et Bernie Sanders is, is being a very credible candidate, but you know, right now the, the machine and certainly the, the, the, the, what, the common money või, või, või on sekretär Clinton, going forward.

It's interesting, I mean, if you look at Italy, for example, of course they are two to different people, but if, if they have been chosen Perlusconi for many years and, and trusting him, even though all the normal people know it's a joke, but like, like, like trumping, but, but the guy has rule the nation, like basically more than a decade.

Jaa, et, et as I said, I, I can't make, you can't rule anybody out, I can't make any predictions there, it's, it's, it's interesting slash entertaining to watch right now, I'm hoping the entertainment value diminishes somewhat as the campaign gets more, as, as we get closer to the election. But

you think that US people are smart enough not to elect Trump?

Aa, I'm not going to answer the question as you just ask it. I, I'm going to say that what the US people, I believe, are signaling is that they are tired of overly filtered politicians. They are tired of people, who, it's hard to know what they are really saying, who follow as cautious of line as they possibly can, whose policies really are determined more by polling than they are by really personally held beliefs. And Trump, uh, regardless of what he's thinking of, is kind of standing that on his head. And he is connecting with people because, whether they like what he's saying or not, they believe he means it. And they like the fact that he's standing behind what he's saying. And I think that is a lesson for politicians in the United States, that people are interested in that element.

I do, I do not know if, if it is customer for an ambassador that's leaving the country to leave suggestions or three envelopes behind for the next one, but if you were to do seda thing, what would you, what would you say to your successor, what would you suggest? I, I

will... I'll just talk about the issues that the embassy has been working on and think that that would be, would be an area that I'd hoped in some way or another would continue. One is obviously the security situation and I think that we've had great cooperation with the Estonian defense establishment on the bilateral side and I'd like to see that continuing with NATO. And it's just a question of what the resources are and how they're going to be deploy'd. But I think the effort of reassurance to our allies, detents to our enemies, has been very important, I'd like to see that continue. On the, the commercial side, I think that the commercial future of the Estonian-Amerikan relationship really is going to be in the tech world. And I'd like to see that continue and continue in a way that. That benefits both countries. And then the last is just the integration issues that Estonia is dealing with, it probably will be more complicated with the arrival of refugees, but I'm, I'm pleased that at least there is an element of Estonia society that believes Estonia should play a role in this and, both as a humanitarian gesture to help play its role in the European Union. And I hope that Estonia is, I am, I am certain that Estonia is, is equipped to deal with these people. I just hope that that process goes, goes smoothly. And then in the overall elements of, of integration in the country. We, at the embassi, have done our best to reach out to the russian-speaking population in Estonia, understanding that their intress is sometimes different than the estonian-speaking population. Understanding that the United States is often less popular in that community and that NATO and some of the other things that we're doing internationally are less popular there. And we would like to have greater contact and greater communication with that community as well.